Ladies, gentlemen, and haters, please remember that the root of this problem is the chief referee, Ugur H. Tosun. The city of Mt. Pleasant, Lisa Hadden, and the army of volunteers have welcomed us into their city with open arms. This is one of if not the best weekend of racing in the state and is incredibly well run. They had hospitality tents, free food, more water than you could drink, great courses, great racing, a killer payout, tons of smiling volunteers, lodging deals, and a very well run weekend. They have no say over what one difficult USAC official decides to turn their race into. I have no affiliation with this event other than as a racer and someone that enjoys the weekend, I just hope that your anger is well placed. So send Ugur and USAC an email as a racing fan, a racer, or simply as the angry TMS anon you are. BUT if you are taking the time to send an email to the people that created this mess please also send one to the race organizer, Lisa Hadden. You can find her email here. http://mbra.org/indexx.php?module=eventDetails.inc.php&id=832
I agree with the previous post. Thank the orgaonizers and volunteers for a well run race. Direct the venom to the appropriate people. Would have been nice if the rest of the prize money could have been allotted to training for the official that decided what was left of the field went over the center line. Best heard comment was I wish DQ meant USA cycling was treating us to Dairy Queen.
The funniest thing about that video is the one of the biggest if not the biggest offenders of egregiously crossing over the yellow line in that race was none other than Andys Burns himself... and he gets interviewed. Kill me now.
Props to the city, organizers, sponsors and everyone else involved. This is a class event. Also, I give a double thumbs up to all the hard asses that went out here to race for 120 miles in that heat. It's one thing to deal with it when you are used to it, but from 50 @ west branch to 92 @ MP is a big swing. I tip my helmet to all of you and your toughness.
Lisa Hadden is a saint. She has single-handedly developed the best run race in Michigan while simultaneously getting a community involved where cycling is as foreign as that shitty official. Do not let the poor outcome of today's race influence your opinion of this race, it's promotors, volunteers, etc. This was a shitty decision on a power hungry officials' part, not on the race management itself.
Yes great race! Now they like other promoters need to get on their timing people. No reason to not have results posted online a couple hours after each event is over. Not a criticism just a suggestion to put it in the timing contract.
shame on those guys for defacing the race that way. Protests can be handled afterwards. The racers may have had a point, but did the Casino sponsor who was watching know the details about the dispute?
Do you think you are paid pros? You're not. You're weekend warriors with over inflated egos who couldn't hold the wheel of the second rate former pro who won the race.
That was certainly a nice way to bitch slap the promoter and humiliate her in front of the whole city and race sponsors.
Tony's there scratching his head. He builds up the crowd and then here come these idiots crying cause someone took their lollipop away.
"shame on those guys for defacing the race that way. Protests can be handled afterwards. The racers may have had a point, but did the Casino sponsor who was watching know the details about the dispute?
Do you think you are paid pros? You're not. You're weekend warriors with over inflated egos who couldn't hold the wheel of the second rate former pro who won the race.
That was certainly a nice way to bitch slap the promoter and humiliate her in front of the whole city and race sponsors.
Tony's there scratching his head. He builds up the crowd and then here come these idiots crying cause someone took their lollipop away".
The point of the matter is that the races DO NOT have a true and realistic forum for complaints which is why that protest was chosen and successfull. No theatrics or yelling on their part. Just a silent protest in the only true manner available.
You're right, their not getting paid and apparently they're racing to put on a show for you. Based on your comment they took away "your" show so their protest was successfull.
I was wondering how many posts it would take for the first clueless wonder to comment. Congratulations, you won.
By the way, if they only paid 15 deep, where did the rest of the money go??? I seriously don't want to bag on promoters, but did the saintly promotional group keep the funds?
One more. If they only paid 15 deep because every other racer quit, then I guess it shows how hard the race was and that the alledged "PRO Wanabees" must just be ok at riding a bicycle.
I know that I said one more...but one more.
Since Ugor was following the "letter of the law", why didn't he DQ the entire field on the first right turn when everyone, yes everyone, swung into the left lane to traverse back to the right. And if you say that doesn't in every race then you're a lier.
I've got to ask this question even though it doesn't matter and I said "one more.
Have you ever raced, and I mean really raced, 120 miles and felt what it was like to suffer that long to make that selection of riders? Let's not even take into consideration the training time and financial sacrafice (guys drove from Quebec for Pete's sake). That wasn't a 40 minute club crit and you can't bull-shit or suck wheel to make that selection. Just look at who was left standing.
As Wifey, you all know I have been standing at many Pro/1/2 finish lines yelling my heart and soul for my guy... Sunday was no different.
I can honestly say I have never been prouder than I was Sunday around 2:51 at the finish line in Mt. P.
I am so very proud of 18 or so riders.
As they approached the finish line I quickly realized something was amiss. I thought someone must be hurt for the riders to neutralize the race. I too quickly realized this was not the case.
I continue to be proud of these men that displayed LOYALTY to the sport and to each other; LOGIC in quietly stating their side on the story; and PASSION towards pedaling their bike.
I want to honor the work each of these men do day in and out for our sport. They continue to train and compete each weekend sacrificing as needed to be successful.
Some of my favorite WARRIORS were in attendance toeing the finish line on Sunday. Jon, Tom, Kurt, Paul, Adam....My hat is off to you and the others I don't know or don't know as well.--Wifey
I read this blog often, i like bikes race a dozen times a year mainly mtb, and some cyclocross. I like the way who ever does this blog throws there views and opinions out there and let the "scene" run with it. But to be flat faced honest the road side of my scene seems like a big pain in the butt. I know most are dedicated nice weekend warriors, but i can not believe the bull shit,attitude and disrespect that follows it. is it just here? or is the entire normal road scene like this? because it seems like a lot of stress and work for not.
I was waiting for the first sport racing MTB guy to pipe up. Dumbass. Don't you have CPS standings to check? I think four people are going to qualify in your category this year, better hurry up and get in an extra race so you can podium. The road scene supports riding and racing in an awesome way, you come to the place for people to vent or see a 40 mph finish with riders bumping and fighting for position and watch tempers boil over and think it makes you an expert on bike racing. Crawl back into your hole or take the time to actually figure out how it all works. Or look at the elite mtb guys that simply go wherever the free product is because they can finish top 30 in a NUE race they deserve free bike parts and industry hook ups. Give me a break, you are in a niche part of a niche discipline of a niche sport.
i saw this whole episode and regardless of what the racers thought or think it looked like or what point they were trying to make, it came across poorly.
why didn't they finish the race, then go to the officials en-masse with their protest?
Are you people seriously implying that everyone should have sprinted after they were told they were disqualified and they were now "pedestrian"? Perhaps you don't understand that last part. If you believe that they should have done it to put on a show than you've got a seriously skewed perspective and obviously have never raced or ridden at a high level and put your body through what these guys did on Sunday.
That same BS exists in any sport including community softball. Any time you put competitive people together they compete, form rivalries, and bitch about everyone else. If you want to tell me you love everyone you ride against(I won't call it racing in your case)then I will happily call you an underachiever.
Super bummed at the state of usacycling right now. Not the first time, but this will be yet another straw to break the camels back and kill road races. Officer park crits are the future I guess. Closed courses and with a manageable number of officials.
At one point during the RR... I said to myself... wow, it's nice not having the Obermeyer's riding up and down the pack beeping their horn all day. Now... not so much.
I would take a beeping horn and even individual disqualifications at the time of the stated infraction any day over deciding two groups are disqualified. Not informing the group of fifteen leaving them to keep riding, and stopping the group of 18 five miles from the finish to inform them a few miles back "they all crossed the line".
I think egos aside people should understand a few things.
1) The race practically had a rolling enclosure with two motorcycles directing traffic as well as a follow / wheel truck (with an official) and a lead ref car.
2) At no point after the first three miles ( the ref pulled us over to chat about the yellow line rule) was anyone told or warned of their infractions. The next chat came at mile 114 where we were all told that we had all be dq'ed.
3) The centerline rule was properly observed by racers from my vantage point. I saw no dangerous advancing over the centerline.
Consistancy deserves respect. Racers consistantly disrespect the centerline rule. Officials consistantly don't follow through with enforcing the centerline rule. The two equal no respect. Just saying.
come on lets get real here. I don't know if I've ever been in a road race where the riders did not cross yellow on the corners, both before and after the apex of the turn. When there are cops and cars blocking, and a moto patrol that is pretty safe. And if you slow down to 18, look both ways, and stay right of yellow you will be dropped. This is not commonly understood as a violation of the yellow line rule.
Now moving up on the left of yellow on a straight to advance, attack, stay in the draft, etc, I have always considered a violation. Even there, some consideration or leniency is normally given for the type of roads you are on, if someone may have gotten bumped out, etc.
My experience has been, that if you make a move over yellow, or even get bumped, and they see it, they will pull alongside and tell you to go to the back of the pack and next time you are out - one warning. I have never seen this applied on taking wide corners though.
This has been my experience over 10+ years racing. Maybe I am f'd up on that, or the rules have changed but it has always seemed like a reasonable balance of safety and common sense to me.
BTW - it is legal for non-USCF racing vehicles (cars, motos, fast non racing cyclists, officials cars, Obermeyers) to pass on the right anytime they are not endangered by opposing traffic. But if you or eye get elbowed into the other lane 6" and its entirely empty we are breaking a rule.
What was up with that course marshall on the motor cycle going up and down the left side of the road in double yellows. i hope he got disqualified too. someone said he got a ticket by a cop for doing it
As a USA Cycling Official I consider Centerline infractions pretty serious. But the situation in which the infraction occurs must be considered. Riders get pushed out, that just happens in a crowded field, and high speed corners in a clear field of vision is not good but not dangerous either. Crossing line to pass is not good, doing it on a blind hill or corner is insane. That said, I haven't disqualified anybody without warnings. To suggest Andys as the only offender or the worst offender is nuts. The referee didn't disqualify Andys. He disqualified Andys and 19 others. As for the riders, why sprint to a finish or even cross the line in a race you are already out of.
So after inconveniencing everyone trying to drive through town and the surrounding countryside, most of them didn't even finish? Tell me again why we have this event to begin with?
6 people liked this. Like Reply
Informed_Yuan21 hours agoin reply to Paula
I agree, Paula. This event is a waste of time, money, and effort. It is a disservice to downtown businesses (with the possible exception of Max & Emily's) and the haughty title of the event - c'mon.
Some francophile, too artsy for their britches, not-quite-in-touch-with-economic-reality should rethink this mess and take the tremendous amount of money they spend on this and, I don't know, put a traffic circle on Bellows Street. It would be a better use of community funds.
The simple point is that the official, Mr. Tosun, handled the decision very poorly. Other than stopping the entire field at mile 5, there was no other warning or any indication that there was a centerline problem for the next 109 miles. There was no motoref riding near the centerline to view accurately what was going on, just Mr. Tosun in a follow car viewing the race from the passenger seat of the car in the right lane behind the race. How can you accurately determine a centerline violation from that vantage point? And if the entire front group went over the centerline at mile 101 as Mr. Tosun claimed, why not honk the horn and warn the riders or dq us all then at the point of infraction?
Was a mass dq really the best way to handle this situation? It is unfathomable that Mr. Tosun chose not to even attempt to handle the situation with anything other than a mass dq. I have raced for 20 years at every level of the sport, in the US and Europe and never seen anything like that. It has nothing to do with what category this race was, "pro", amateur, masters or juniors this was a arbitrary decision that ruined an otherwise excellent race. All racers want safe racing (especially those of us weekend warrior ex pros with families and real jobs to go back to) but we also want fair and unbiased officiating to make it worth the enormous amount of time we invest to race. Anything less than that is an insult to all of us as racers.
Unless you have any idea of what it feels like to spend 65 miles on the front of the race chasing a breakaway observing the centerline rule to the letter of the law (why would I cross the centerline when I'm on the front with my team chasing??) only to be dq'ed 6 miles from the finish for a phantom violation you will never understand why those of us in that group stopped at the line to protest. Forget the lost omnium and race placing and lost prize money it's a slap in the face to race that hard and have one misguided official end it all.
This kind of thing is why good races die. USA Cycling needs to hear that message.
It was definitely a bad call by the official and I think most of the riders, while disappointed, acted in a way that was respectable. Some of the racers, however, made their complaints excessively vocal and public. I think stopping on the line was an appropriate protest....getting into a vocal pissing match with the race director or anyone else was too much. If this race goes away it'll be because of how a couple of the racers reacted.
Anonymous @ 4:55 pm, If the race goes away it's because those of us weekend warrior ex pros with families and jobs to go back to aren't going to come back next year and risk the safe thing happening again. Neither will our teams, the other teams from our region, the Quebec team or anyone else we talk to. Those of us who sat through the post race meeting with the officials and tried to deal with a bad situation in an adult manner and didn't insult the officials/race director have no other recourse but to vote with our pocketbooks/entry fees/team budgets. If you think that won't happen you are sadly mistaken.
What's really disturbing is that the whole squad of USA Cycling officials who knew that something was amiss with Mr. Tosun's decision stood idly by and toed the "company line." When the whole group of officials takes it as gospel without questioning what actually happened on the road and whether Mr. Tosun's decision was really the best course of action makes me wonder who actually bears the responsibility. Not once did any of the other officials speak up and ask whether a mass dq without a warning was the appropriate decision. It is difficult to challenge a bad decision and force another official to admit to a mistake but the race director herself and the other officials on site had that opportunity and did nothing. Blaming the racers is not appropriate here.
After 75 comments with only a few adding sense to the matter, I'll chime in.
I dont have the 20 years experience in the field as many of you do but in my short time and over the weekend I laugh at all these supposed saints in the field.
We all break the rules, I have been on the wrong side of the road to stay in breaks/attacks and I have been left behind because I was on the right side of the road. I have teammates who are aggressive and easily cross the line between right and wrong.
This weekend has taught us something, police ourselves. In all sports when you leave something to an official, your not going to like the results. I hear a comment on how so and so is the worst, then call him out on it during the race. They DQ'd the field because it got to a point where it was more than an isolated case in their eyes.
Was the official wrong? yes. Did we the envelop? yes. Dont blame the race promoters. Go after the USAC. Last year was great, the official moved people to the back all day.
Anonymous @ 5:53 I understand you are frustrated. But what could the promotor or race director actually done? Do you think they were going to overrule the official? That's like an athletic director trying to get a referee to change their call. Even if they decided they would reverse the decision....the group in question didn't cross the finish line, how would they have placed riders? (Again...not blaming riders, I think that their silent protest was completely appropriate)
All that aside, I am 100% in agreement it was a bad call and THAT is the officials fault and I think that blame can go to all the officials who didn't step in and question the decision. I also understand racers have the choice of which races they do...and for those teams that came from out of the area (Bissell/Garneau/Panther) I'm sure it will be tough to justify coming back...but you are just as likely to get an over-zealous official at ANY OTHER race, as you are to have one at Mt. Pleasant again next year. My point was that its hard enough to put on races, get sponsors, organize volunteers and I think that when people are overly vocal about it, it puts a bad taste in those peoples' mouths...whoever's fault it was.
I was DQ'd in the group of 18. I never crossed the line all day except taking corners. I agree that there were plenty of people over the line in crosswinds, but the official overreacted by disqualifying everybody. He even disqualified my teammates that were dropped off the back. How random is that? He had no idea who was part of it. We pay lots of money to race. We had the right to protest bad officiating.
i understand that in 2013 all Michigan road races will be complete enclosures on the race course, which will eliminate the center-line infractions altogether.
The email I received back from Shawn Farrell today...Hi Ellie, Thank you for the note. The centerline rule is generally a lose/lose scenario for everyone as it is nearly impossible to both conduct a competitive event and also have an artificial line that is easy to cross and then have a human being decide where to draw the line. I have, of course, heard from lots of you about this incident and am sorry that you all had a frustrating day. I also must weigh into account, however, several factors, including the following: 1) In my 33 years of officiating, I have never heard a rider, until now, actually admit that he did deserve to be DQ'd for crossing the centerline, so to some extent, if 18 riders in a field get DQ'd, it does not surprise me that they all are upset about it. 2) The behavior of the pack was apparently bad enough that the CR felt the need to stop the event at mile six to warn everyone. Therefore, that was the only warning anyone should have gotten. 3) There was a USAC staff member and his driver who confirmed that the incident did happen as described and that the pack was so far to the left side of the road that the officials had to come up the right side to get the numbers of the offending riders. 4) There were two riders from the group of DQ'd riders who contacted us individually saying that the incident did happen as described and that they were embarrassed for cat 1-2 riders everywhere for the behavior of the group that then tried to claim they were unjustly penalized. 5) There was a member of the group disqualified who is actually in the Local Association and who assigns officials in a neighboring state who also said that the call was just, even though he, himself, was disqualified. Adding those facts into the collective angst of those of you who were DQ'd makes it difficult to decide, sitting here in the ivory tower in Colorado Springs, exactly what happened. I will continue to collect opinions from those who were there and I will be speaking with the officials present to debrief on the situation and discuss what alternatives were available and if now, with hindsight, we think the best decision was made. Common sense says, 'Not a chance.' I have been an official for a long time, and plenty of times the entire pack was over the centerline for long periods of time. Any strong left to right crosswind will do that to a pack, so it is easy to believe. The fact that he stopped the race at the 6 mile point to issue a warning indicates to me that there was a behavioral issue going on, and stopping them to give the warning is the approved method of handling that situation. However, you only get one such warning. I have had to do that exact thing multiple times in my officiating career. I have to admit I hate the centerline rule. It really does mess up a good bike race, but we can’t get courses if we don’t use it because counties will not give us closed roads and we can’t afford the police to run true rolling enclosures.
Well, when Andys agrees with the call, what would he say???
There was a member of the group disqualified who is actually in the Local Association and who assigns officials in a neighboring state who also said that the call was just, even though he, himself, was disqualified.
Everyone talks like this is the first time the results of a sporting event has been changed by officiating. It happens in amature & professonal sports every day. Wonder if there will be 90+ comments of praise and words of thanks to promotors and officials that do it right at 99.9% of all events? Hater hater
"Payouts suck" - cycling needs to do something about this sense of entitlement. Either get rid of the money, or peg the prize list to a percentage of the entry fees to a percentage of the field. I bet 95% of us would still race if there were no payouts at all.
The promoters are in it just to make quick cash. Most of the time they're screwing the racers by changing the payouts. That happened at Birmingham where the promoter played bait and switch and it took months to get the prizes
Too many age classes in MTB. They get something like 6 people per age/class. It's the 'everybody's a winner' attitude (kind of like women's road racing is in Michigan). Outside of Iceman, pretty much everybody finishes top 10, and half the field gets a 'prize'. MTB racing is a joke.
I have been racing for 20 years, have been an official for 8 years, and also help put on a few races over the last couple of years, and I am currently the one who assigns officials for most of Michigan races, so I have seen racing from every side now. Like Shawn Farrell stated, it is very difficult to take sides on this issue unless you were there to actually see what happen for yourself, and not many riders will admit to being wrong when accused of crossing the yellow line and being DQ’d for it.
Do I find it hard to believe that all 20 riders would cross the center line at the same time? yes. Do I find it imposible? No! Just ask any rider that was in the pack at this year’s Pro 1-2 field at Frankenmuth, at one point there was not one rider from the main field that was on the right side of the center line, and it was nowhere near a turn, it was all rider seeking shelter from the wind. Anyone that was there want to dispute that one? Did anyone say anything to the official who was following us?
For those who are hating on the MBRA, I will remind you that all of those positions are held by non-paid volunteers that give of their time to do their best to make racing in Michigan better. When positions were open to be part of the MBRA board, I didn’t see too many hands in the air.
For those who ask why we have USAC, they give the racers a fair and equal playing field, they make and enforce rules for a reason, not just to be the bad guy. If you don’t think they work, just ask Rudy or Zoe who were both denied entry into one Wednesday night race that is not sanctioned because they don’t have to follow the rules of USAC. Or you could ask any one of the Pro 1-2 field at Birmingham last year who did not get the correct pay out because a new promoter did not understand the rules. Yes, it may have taken a while for everyone to get their money, but they got it, and that was because USAC stepped in and made it right. Without them, the promoter could have said “sorry, my race, my rules”. You may not like them all of the time, but it’s better to have them around than not. JS
You may not like them all of the time, but it’s better to have them around than not.
i can agree on most of that JS. but for newbies to come into the sport, and have to cough up the costly membership for a license, or the guys who earned here way to the 1/2 filed and only to witness some lunkheads who got upgrades just because the wiggled there way up because some regional or who ever official granted them there "pro1/2 card is kinda disheartening not to mention waters down the validity of the field. I aint naming names but there are a pile of guys that didn't probably even come close to getting enough points for the move up.
I know its off the subject but USAC needs some serious help and i aint the gu that wants to do it, im just saying and bitching.
What they aren't seeing is how much damage has been done to the race. Since the start the promoter has fought against a vocal minority up here in MP to fund this race.
These detractors don't see how the race has inspired so many kids in the city to be more active (did you see how many kids were in those kids races?). Or that the local shop now has 3+ weekly rides lead by local residents. What made the paper was the protest and how bad it reflected on the city. Right now that's all the talk, how the racers on Sunday trashed the city. I don't think the race will be back next year.
"Funny how once the letter from the official came out with all the evidence against the group, those who were DQ'd disappeared".
So a letter makes it true? Shit I should have just typed that we were on the right side of the road.
This is definitely one of those Scene strings where the people that don't know never will, but will keep typing and the people that know have already moved on.
"so those 19 will go down in MISCENE as the "Jackass 19"?"
What a dumb_ss comment. Read the results on USA cycling. Looks like it is closer to 35 or more DQ'd. Including a former National champion, Ex-Pro's and collegiate racers. If your going to open your mouth have at least have something meaningful come out then a crap statement like that.
I would like to personally thank all of the racers that made the hike to Mt. Pleasant to participate in our annual race. You came from all over Michigan and the Midwest and I know this was at a cost to your individual and team bank accounts and your time. I truly appreciate all of the comments after the race from riders also telling me what a great race this is, how much you enjoyed it and how well run and efficient it was and most importantly how safe it was. I also appreciate all of your suggestions and recommendations for course and operational improvements. Your comments allow us to improve each year so the race can grow and we can meet the growing demands of racing opportunities for the cycling community. I also fully understand the extreme frustration and anger of riders that were disqualified at the end of the race after a grueling 120 miles of sheer baking in the sun, being dehydrated, exhausted and then so disappointed. Years of training, going without so you can invest in equipment, hard work and skill building takes its toll on family time, job responsibilities and other pursuits. I want to state that I fully support your right to protest what you considered an inappropriate call by a Chief Ref. I also urge you to follow USA Cycling grievance procedures if you want to continue the protest as is your right. As stated before, sporting events always come with strong emotional disagreements with refs and this is nothing new to cycling as well. I do however consider the racers and a community in a partnership to grow the sport of cycling. One cannot be accomplished without the other. Promoters cannot hold an event without the racers attending. Racers cannot race without a venue to support their talents. It should be a win-win situation. At Le Tour de Mont Pleasant racers staged a protest at the end of the race and for that I have no quarrel. I do however take exception to the racers afterward that vowed to never come back to Mt. Pleasant and stated this loudly to anyone who would listen after the race. Any promoter or racer worth their salt should know that once the race starts, it is in the hands of USA Cycling as they are on site to manage the race. The community is there to provide a challenging and attractive infrastructure for the racers, and offer an opportunity for racers to showcase their skills. Neither the community nor the promoter has the final say as to the roster of officials. To blame a community for a ref’s call seems like killing the messenger who brought you a message.
continued again.. The extreme obstacles, barriers, and challenges we overcome to host an event each year is beyond measurement because we love this event and we love our racers that come to town, we want to share your joy in cycling and take a long held European tradition and bring it not only to our country and our states but to our small towns as well. Over the last four years our volunteers have formed a tight e ‘sprit de corps while they gain expertise in race organizing. It gives them a sense of pride and belonging to be able to contribute to such a great event and to earn the respect of other community members. The Le Tour has engendered a race organizing subculture in our community that is growing as more and more people are bicycling everywhere also. In essence, Le Tour de Mont Pleasant is a place where people can become great! In summary, I would like to say that I bear no personal grudge against any protesting rider and that I bear no ill will to any of our riders. I just believe the perspective of the community hosting a race should be taken into consideration when these things happen. The partnership between racers and their host communities needs to remain strong so that all can succeed whether it is holding a road marshal flag or training to be bumped up to CAT 1. I wish all racers another excellent racing season, and I look forward to seeing many of you at races throughout the summer. Thank you, Lisa Hadden Promoter/Organizer Le Tour de Mont Pleasant USA Cycling Official
Hey, I would say she knows what she is talking about.
Lets consider the facts. This has been a great event for what 4 years? They run it like a pro race, or as best they can. The payouts are good, courses good. They listen to suggestions from the racers and are very accomodating. They have funding and passion to keep this going.
If there is a race that could go big time, and that we want to support, in MI, this is one of the top contenders.
Please dont' trash it because some judge may have made some bad calls (and in talking with people today those calls may have been valid).
Lisa Hadden, whom I've never met, and the whole MP crew deserve props, not BS. They are the people that keep your scene alive.
As somebody that was actually in the chase group that was disqualified, I feel obligated to share what I saw. So many people here are making things up and being overly dramatic.
Near the start of the race we were all stopped and given a warning about the center line. That was the only warning I remember. The race resumed. The entire race I never once went over the line other than taking right corners, even when in crosswinds. I never go over the line unless pushed over and I have never received a simple warning. Not even in races with the crazy officials on motorcycles riding alongside the peloton. I am not saying that nobody went over the line. I saw the occasional guy ride over it or hang out in the other lane a few seconds before getting back in. As you can imagine, that can happen a lot over 100+ miles.
The race got faster with about 30mi to go and the field split up. There was a crosswind and people were riding the yellow line. Nothing crazy. I was still on the inside of the line. Coming up to a right-hand corner which took us South (and appears to be at mile 101 where we were told everybody went over the line), everybody moved into the left lane to take the corner. After the corner, everybody was back into the correct lane and still riding along the line because of the crosswind.
About ten miles later the official pulled in front of us and stopped us completely to tell us we were all disqualified because we all went over the line at mile 101. As you can imagine we were all upset, but there was nothing we could do. The race was over, and we could only ride back and try to protest. It had nothing to do with the promoter. The official made a bad/unfair call. Yeah, a lot of guys went over the line in the race, but not everybody did, unless he counted that corner.
I will be back at the race next year unless my team has me racing somewhere else. If all DQ'd riders decided not to show up next year, it would not hurt the race. We were only a small fraction of the 900 racers that weekend. I know people will be back. It is unlikely that scenario will happen again. A few people may have overreacted, but please don't say that we all ruined the event. Thanks.
I think that everyone that thinks that they know what happened should actually read, very slowly, what Alex just stated. Most likely the most accurate and factual statement that has been posted since Sunday.
“They were unhappy, but there was no official protest filed,” said Larry Martin, Midwest regional coordinator for USA Cycling. “A lot of tweeting, a lot of blogs, but no papers.”
The riders were disqualified for repeatedly crossing the center line of the road during the 120-mile men’s pro category 1 and 2 road race, which is run on public roads around Isabella County.
gotta admit the ego's and attitudes are incredible in and around our scene. its sad because when it all comes down to it. nearly everyone who shows up are amateur weekend warriors.
lookit these guys wanted to make the promoter pay and wanted to humilitate the promter, thats what they set out to do with their whiny protest and then badmouthing and trashing the city and thats what they did. Alex should have rolled to the line and then turned around to change and confront the official with his protest or he should have filed a formal protest
i think we should call these guys out for whining and bitching and who were the guys trashing the city. Its a small city, anything they say about the event is getting around like wildfire.
Just so you know, I was only saying what I saw. Most of us that were DQ'd did not say a word or complain at all. Before you tough guys hiding behind your anonymous names start pointing fingers, you should know that just a few guys were making a scene. I just watched along with most others.
3-4 guys may have made the event look bad, but the rest of you are making the sport look bad.
If you want to continue the discussion, come say hi to me next time you see me. Otherwise, if you have nothing productive to say, don't say anything. I am done now. Time to ride my bike. Have a nice day.
4:01. Okay… I’ll take your bait. Are you ready to stop being a coward and throwing your hate around? You simply got it all wrong and we need to have a conversation. I would ask that you email me directly at alan(dot)zoltowski@gmail(dot)com and then I'll give you my phone number so we can have that conversation, that is, if you are done lurking around this board and showing no class like you’re claiming others have failed to show at LTDMP. I was one of the 19… I actually was “there” and I rode “the race” and I made the split. I’m also a MBRA board member and personal friend of Lisa Hadden. I actually spoke to her yesterday for 30 minutes. She seems to be handling things much better than you. I’m 47, married, have three kids… lived in Mt. Pleasant for 6 years. Met my wife there… earned two degrees there… love Mt. Pleasant, the race and I try to conduct myself in a way that reflects positively on myself, my team and sponsors. I see no need to recap what happened on Sunday because Chris Uberti’s blog and Alex Vanias’ descriptions of what occurred during the race are spot on. I rode out of my mind on Sunday and found myself alongside the strongest contingent of riders I’ve seen in years at a local race. Rock stars… super egos? Nope. Just like you and me… regular guys who race their bikes on the weekends… some in the 20’s with a girlfriend cheering them on… others in their 40’s with their wife and kids trying to find shade waiting for their dad to come back to town. Who are you? If you want to spew hate; fine, but do so after we talk. I’m ready and waiting for your email… and I’ll keep your identity in confidence, you have my word. Hell, create a phony email address and give me a false name if that works for you.
Helo all, I have been reading the information, thoughts and passions regarding this race since I was one of the beneficiaries of the DQ's. My average personal hell ride to get my body to the finish line just to tell myself I didn't quit turned into an 8th place finish. A common theme among all the writings is rules, respect and right. At last nights team skill ride I talked about these points with beginner to experienced riders. Stories about me being DQ'ed at the nationals for something I didn't know I did, and being DQ'd from races for pressing the gray area of the rules. With over 2000 races under my belt I have seen it all. I will continue to take what I have learned from this weekend, lessons I would not have been taught if the race didn't play out the way it did, as training tools to help our racer grow in their knowledge of rules, respect and right.
Thanks Rayster, Alan, Alex, anon etc.. for shedding light, hate, opinions, facts, lies and crap about what unfolded on the roads around Mt pleasant. I think we can all agree or maybe not that it will be learning experience for everyone connected to it. We hope in the future good can come from this. We know this blog is often a dumping ground for whatever, but from everyone here thank you for taking the time to show support for your "scene"
147 comments:
Ladies, gentlemen, and haters, please remember that the root of this problem is the chief referee, Ugur H. Tosun. The city of Mt. Pleasant, Lisa Hadden, and the army of volunteers have welcomed us into their city with open arms. This is one of if not the best weekend of racing in the state and is incredibly well run. They had hospitality tents, free food, more water than you could drink, great courses, great racing, a killer payout, tons of smiling volunteers, lodging deals, and a very well run weekend. They have no say over what one difficult USAC official decides to turn their race into. I have no affiliation with this event other than as a racer and someone that enjoys the weekend, I just hope that your anger is well placed. So send Ugur and USAC an email as a racing fan, a racer, or simply as the angry TMS anon you are. BUT if you are taking the time to send an email to the people that created this mess please also send one to the race organizer, Lisa Hadden. You can find her email here.
http://mbra.org/indexx.php?module=eventDetails.inc.php&id=832
Brilliant Post!
agree
I agree with the previous post. Thank the orgaonizers and volunteers for a well run race. Direct the venom to the appropriate people. Would have been nice if the rest of the prize money could have been allotted to training for the official that decided what was left of the field went over the center line. Best heard comment was I wish DQ meant USA cycling was treating us to Dairy Queen.
I wish DQ meant USA cycling was treating us to Dairy Queen.
too funny. what does usa cycling do for the avg racer other than give us 2 stickers with our jacked up card?
The funniest thing about that video is the one of the biggest if not the biggest offenders of egregiously crossing over the yellow line in that race was none other than Andys Burns himself... and he gets interviewed. Kill me now.
agree without hatred
Andys Burns himself... and he gets interviewed. Kill me now.
god dam no shit. so true
Does anyone know where comments/complaints regarding officiating should be directed?
Would it be Shawn Farrell?
http://www.usacycling.org/usa-cycling-staff-contacts-directory.htm
agree post it up here, TMS is sure bet for access to get the point across.
Props to the city, organizers, sponsors and everyone else involved. This is a class event. Also, I give a double thumbs up to all the hard asses that went out here to race for 120 miles in that heat. It's one thing to deal with it when you are used to it, but from 50 @ west branch to 92 @ MP is a big swing. I tip my helmet to all of you and your toughness.
amen
Lisa Hadden is a saint. She has single-handedly developed the best run race in Michigan while simultaneously getting a community involved where cycling is as foreign as that shitty official. Do not let the poor outcome of today's race influence your opinion of this race, it's promotors, volunteers, etc. This was a shitty decision on a power hungry officials' part, not on the race management itself.
its a good race
Its a great race. 3 of them to be exact.
Yes great race! Now they like other promoters need to get on their timing people. No reason to not have results posted online a couple hours after each event is over. Not a criticism just a suggestion to put it in the timing contract.
DOPAGE!
shame on those guys for defacing the race that way. Protests can be handled afterwards. The racers may have had a point, but did the Casino sponsor who was watching know the details about the dispute?
Do you think you are paid pros? You're not. You're weekend warriors with over inflated egos who couldn't hold the wheel of the second rate former pro who won the race.
That was certainly a nice way to bitch slap the promoter and humiliate her in front of the whole city and race sponsors.
Tony's there scratching his head. He builds up the crowd and then here come these idiots crying cause someone took their lollipop away.
Good one......
WTF.
HATER
Did Swiatlowski write the last comment?
wow
Tony's there scratching his head. He builds up the crowd and then here come these idiots crying cause someone took their lollipop away.
do you even have a clue?
crazy. so did they pay out to anyone or just pocket the cash? maybe I should have kept riding
They paid out 15 deep rather than 25 deep.
"shame on those guys for defacing the race that way. Protests can be handled afterwards. The racers may have had a point, but did the Casino sponsor who was watching know the details about the dispute?
Do you think you are paid pros? You're not. You're weekend warriors with over inflated egos who couldn't hold the wheel of the second rate former pro who won the race.
That was certainly a nice way to bitch slap the promoter and humiliate her in front of the whole city and race sponsors.
Tony's there scratching his head. He builds up the crowd and then here come these idiots crying cause someone took their lollipop away".
The point of the matter is that the races DO NOT have a true and realistic forum for complaints which is why that protest was chosen and successfull. No theatrics or yelling on their part. Just a silent protest in the only true manner available.
You're right, their not getting paid and apparently they're racing to put on a show for you. Based on your comment they took away "your" show so their protest was successfull.
I was wondering how many posts it would take for the first clueless wonder to comment. Congratulations, you won.
By the way, if they only paid 15 deep, where did the rest of the money go??? I seriously don't want to bag on promoters, but did the saintly promotional group keep the funds?
One more. If they only paid 15 deep because every other racer quit, then I guess it shows how hard the race was and that the alledged "PRO Wanabees" must just be ok at riding a bicycle.
I know that I said one more...but one more.
Since Ugor was following the "letter of the law", why didn't he DQ the entire field on the first right turn when everyone, yes everyone, swung into the left lane to traverse back to the right. And if you say that doesn't in every race then you're a lier.
I've got to ask this question even though it doesn't matter and I said "one more.
Have you ever raced, and I mean really raced, 120 miles and felt what it was like to suffer that long to make that selection of riders? Let's not even take into consideration the training time and financial sacrafice (guys drove from Quebec for Pete's sake). That wasn't a 40 minute club crit and you can't bull-shit or suck wheel to make that selection. Just look at who was left standing.
Ok, now I'm done. Time for a cup of joe.
"official" protests to...
Ugur, Tosun, 95 LEXINGTON PKWY S, APT. B-1, SAINT PAUL, Mn.
11:13 AM
solidly spoken
Don't knock Jake for a solid ride.
true dat, no matter what T-of-MP was the hardest field miscene has scene in a long time.
big props to the snake.
As Wifey, you all know I have been standing at many Pro/1/2 finish lines yelling my heart and soul for my guy...
Sunday was no different.
I can honestly say I have never been prouder than I was Sunday around 2:51 at the finish line in Mt. P.
I am so very proud of 18 or so riders.
As they approached the finish line I quickly realized something was amiss. I thought someone must be hurt for the riders to neutralize the race. I too quickly realized this was not the case.
I continue to be proud of these men that displayed LOYALTY to the sport and to each other; LOGIC in quietly stating their side on the story; and PASSION towards pedaling their bike.
I want to honor the work each of these men do day in and out for our sport. They continue to train and compete each weekend sacrificing as needed to be successful.
Some of my favorite WARRIORS were in attendance toeing the finish line on Sunday. Jon, Tom, Kurt, Paul, Adam....My hat is off to you and the others I don't know or don't know as well.--Wifey
I read this blog often, i like bikes race a dozen times a year mainly mtb, and some cyclocross. I like the way who ever does this blog throws there views and opinions out there and let the "scene" run with it.
But to be flat faced honest the road side of my scene seems like a big pain in the butt. I know most are dedicated nice weekend warriors, but i can not believe the bull shit,attitude and disrespect that follows it. is it just here? or is the entire normal road scene like this? because it seems like a lot of stress and work for not.
im not hatin, just my 2 cents.
Let Lisa Hadden know you won't be back if Ugur Tosun will be officiating...
Ugur Tosun who is this guy?
and how do they decide who will officiate?
2:18 PM
agree
i do it weekend after weekend and its pretty bad as of the last few seasons.
not to get off the subject.
I was waiting for the first sport racing MTB guy to pipe up. Dumbass. Don't you have CPS standings to check? I think four people are going to qualify in your category this year, better hurry up and get in an extra race so you can podium. The road scene supports riding and racing in an awesome way, you come to the place for people to vent or see a 40 mph finish with riders bumping and fighting for position and watch tempers boil over and think it makes you an expert on bike racing. Crawl back into your hole or take the time to actually figure out how it all works. Or look at the elite mtb guys that simply go wherever the free product is because they can finish top 30 in a NUE race they deserve free bike parts and industry hook ups. Give me a break, you are in a niche part of a niche discipline of a niche sport.
The race couldn't of been too hard. Old man Zoltowski made the split.
2:45
Let Lisa Hadden know she has done a good job.
3:28 PM
obviously you didn't get my point.
too bad your ego/attitude and lack of personality gets in your way to be a 'normal" human being for a change.
@ 3:28
He did, you didn't.
i saw this whole episode and regardless of what the racers thought or think it looked like or what point they were trying to make, it came across poorly.
why didn't they finish the race, then go to the officials en-masse with their protest?
There was no race to finish. The official told us that we were all disqualified, our race was over, and that we were now pedestrians.
It would have looked even worse had we all just rolled over the finish line group ride pace and not said anything or given any explanation why.
@ 3:28
you cant deny the BS that exists in the scene right now. ignore it if you will
ok
Are you people seriously implying that everyone should have sprinted after they were told they were disqualified and they were now "pedestrian"? Perhaps you don't understand that last part. If you believe that they should have done it to put on a show than you've got a seriously skewed perspective and obviously have never raced or ridden at a high level and put your body through what these guys did on Sunday.
That same BS exists in any sport including community softball. Any time you put competitive people together they compete, form rivalries, and bitch about everyone else. If you want to tell me you love everyone you ride against(I won't call it racing in your case)then I will happily call you an underachiever.
Super bummed at the state of usacycling right now. Not the first time, but this will be yet another straw to break the camels back and kill road races. Officer park crits are the future I guess. Closed courses and with a manageable number of officials.
you are so true Adam
sad but true.
Consistancy derserves respect. Right or Wrong, this weekend was not consistant with the norm.
Just sayin
At one point during the RR... I said to myself... wow, it's nice not having the Obermeyer's riding up and down the pack beeping their horn all day. Now... not so much.
I confirmed with Shawn Farrell that he is the correct person to email. His email address is sfarrell@usacycling.org
7:12
me as well.
and thanks for the contact info.
I would take a beeping horn and even individual disqualifications at the time of the stated infraction any day over deciding two groups are disqualified. Not informing the group of fifteen leaving them to keep riding, and stopping the group of 18 five miles from the finish to inform them a few miles back "they all crossed the line".
agree
i sit on acid
Email sent to Shawn Farrell
"You're weekend warriors with over inflated egos who couldn't hold the wheel of the second rate former pro who won the race."
Jake ain't second rate.
I think egos aside people should understand a few things.
1) The race practically had a rolling enclosure with two motorcycles directing traffic as well as a follow / wheel truck (with an official) and a lead ref car.
2) At no point after the first three miles ( the ref pulled us over to chat about the yellow line rule) was anyone told or warned of their infractions. The next chat came at mile 114 where we were all told that we had all be dq'ed.
3) The centerline rule was properly observed by racers from my vantage point. I saw no dangerous advancing over the centerline.
Consistancy deserves respect. Racers consistantly disrespect the centerline rule. Officials consistantly don't follow through with enforcing the centerline rule. The two equal no respect. Just saying.
off the subject.
8:27
yea well.
ill sit on your acid.
come on lets get real here. I don't know if I've ever been in a road race where the riders did not cross yellow on the corners, both before and after the apex of the turn. When there are cops and cars blocking, and a moto patrol that is pretty safe. And if you slow down to 18, look both ways, and stay right of yellow you will be dropped. This is not commonly understood as a violation of the yellow line rule.
Now moving up on the left of yellow on a straight to advance, attack, stay in the draft, etc, I have always considered a violation. Even there, some consideration or leniency is normally given for the type of roads you are on, if someone may have gotten bumped out, etc.
My experience has been, that if you make a move over yellow, or even get bumped, and they see it, they will pull alongside and tell you to go to the back of the pack and next time you are out - one warning. I have never seen this applied on taking wide corners though.
This has been my experience over 10+ years racing. Maybe I am f'd up on that, or the rules have changed but it has always seemed like a reasonable balance of safety and common sense to me.
BTW - it is legal for non-USCF racing vehicles (cars, motos, fast non racing cyclists, officials cars, Obermeyers) to pass on the right anytime they are not endangered by opposing traffic. But if you or eye get elbowed into the other lane 6" and its entirely empty we are breaking a rule.
Crazy.
Crazy.
but true
wow lots of talk here. Maybe, maybe too much talk?
or keep it going what the heck.
Is racing different this year?
What was up with that course marshall on the motor cycle going up and down the left side of the road in double yellows. i hope he got disqualified too. someone said he got a ticket by a cop for doing it
wtf.
thanks TMS for giving the scene a spot to bitch.
As a USA Cycling Official I consider Centerline infractions pretty serious. But the situation in which the infraction occurs must be considered. Riders get pushed out, that just happens in a crowded field, and high speed corners in a clear field of vision is not good but not dangerous either. Crossing line to pass is not good, doing it on a blind hill or corner is insane. That said, I haven't disqualified anybody without warnings. To suggest Andys as the only offender or the worst offender is nuts. The referee didn't disqualify Andys. He disqualified Andys and 19 others. As for the riders, why sprint to a finish or even cross the line in a race you are already out of.
to all athletes: you can read about the race in the mount pleasant morning sun, entertainment section.
thank you
http://www.themorningsun.com/article/20120611/ENTERTAINMENT01/120619946/no-formal-protests-in-le-tour-disqualifications&pager=full_story
Check out the comments here:
http://www.themorningsun.com/article/20120610/NEWS01/120619991/le-tour-comes-to-a-sudden-halt&pager=full_story
Paula23 hours ago
So after inconveniencing everyone trying to drive through town and the surrounding countryside, most of them didn't even finish? Tell me again why we have this event to begin with?
6 people liked this. Like Reply
Informed_Yuan21 hours agoin reply to Paula
I agree, Paula. This event is a waste of time, money, and effort. It is a disservice to downtown businesses (with the possible exception of Max & Emily's) and the haughty title of the event - c'mon.
Some francophile, too artsy for their britches, not-quite-in-touch-with-economic-reality should rethink this mess and take the tremendous amount of money they spend on this and, I don't know, put a traffic circle on Bellows Street. It would be a better use of community funds.
5 people liked this. Like Reply
The simple point is that the official, Mr. Tosun, handled the decision very poorly. Other than stopping the entire field at mile 5, there was no other warning or any indication that there was a centerline problem for the next 109 miles. There was no motoref riding near the centerline to view accurately what was going on, just Mr. Tosun in a follow car viewing the race from the passenger seat of the car in the right lane behind the race. How can you accurately determine a centerline violation from that vantage point? And if the entire front group went over the centerline at mile 101 as Mr. Tosun claimed, why not honk the horn and warn the riders or dq us all then at the point of infraction?
Was a mass dq really the best way to handle this situation? It is unfathomable that Mr. Tosun chose not to even attempt to handle the situation with anything other than a mass dq. I have raced for 20 years at every level of the sport, in the US and Europe and never seen anything like that. It has nothing to do with what category this race was, "pro", amateur, masters or juniors this was a arbitrary decision that ruined an otherwise excellent race. All racers want safe racing (especially those of us weekend warrior ex pros with families and real jobs to go back to) but we also want fair and unbiased officiating to make it worth the enormous amount of time we invest to race. Anything less than that is an insult to all of us as racers.
Unless you have any idea of what it feels like to spend 65 miles on the front of the race chasing a breakaway observing the centerline rule to the letter of the law (why would I cross the centerline when I'm on the front with my team chasing??) only to be dq'ed 6 miles from the finish for a phantom violation you will never understand why those of us in that group stopped at the line to protest. Forget the lost omnium and race placing and lost prize money it's a slap in the face to race that hard and have one misguided official end it all.
This kind of thing is why good races die. USA Cycling needs to hear that message.
that is quite possibly that best comment TMS has scene to date.
thank you for taking the time to spreading your knowledge, views.
It was definitely a bad call by the official and I think most of the riders, while disappointed, acted in a way that was respectable. Some of the racers, however, made their complaints excessively vocal and public. I think stopping on the line was an appropriate protest....getting into a vocal pissing match with the race director or anyone else was too much. If this race goes away it'll be because of how a couple of the racers reacted.
Anonymous @ 4:55 pm, If the race goes away it's because those of us weekend warrior ex pros with families and jobs to go back to aren't going to come back next year and risk the safe thing happening again. Neither will our teams, the other teams from our region, the Quebec team or anyone else we talk to. Those of us who sat through the post race meeting with the officials and tried to deal with a bad situation in an adult manner and didn't insult the officials/race director have no other recourse but to vote with our pocketbooks/entry fees/team budgets. If you think that won't happen you are sadly mistaken.
What's really disturbing is that the whole squad of USA Cycling officials who knew that something was amiss with Mr. Tosun's decision stood idly by and toed the "company line." When the whole group of officials takes it as gospel without questioning what actually happened on the road and whether Mr. Tosun's decision was really the best course of action makes me wonder who actually bears the responsibility. Not once did any of the other officials speak up and ask whether a mass dq without a warning was the appropriate decision. It is difficult to challenge a bad decision and force another official to admit to a mistake but the race director herself and the other officials on site had that opportunity and did nothing. Blaming the racers is not appropriate here.
dam, so true.
Another great event that appears will not be around next year.
After 75 comments with only a few adding sense to the matter, I'll chime in.
I dont have the 20 years experience in the field as many of you do but in my short time and over the weekend I laugh at all these supposed saints in the field.
We all break the rules, I have been on the wrong side of the road to stay in breaks/attacks and I have been left behind because I was on the right side of the road. I have teammates who are aggressive and easily cross the line between right and wrong.
This weekend has taught us something, police ourselves. In all sports when you leave something to an official, your not going to like the results. I hear a comment on how so and so is the worst, then call him out on it during the race. They DQ'd the field because it got to a point where it was more than an isolated case in their eyes.
Was the official wrong? yes. Did we the envelop? yes. Dont blame the race promoters. Go after the USAC. Last year was great, the official moved people to the back all day.
Lunchtime.
Anonymous @ 5:53
I understand you are frustrated. But what could the promotor or race director actually done? Do you think they were going to overrule the official? That's like an athletic director trying to get a referee to change their call. Even if they decided they would reverse the decision....the group in question didn't cross the finish line, how would they have placed riders? (Again...not blaming riders, I think that their silent protest was completely appropriate)
All that aside, I am 100% in agreement it was a bad call and THAT is the officials fault and I think that blame can go to all the officials who didn't step in and question the decision. I also understand racers have the choice of which races they do...and for those teams that came from out of the area (Bissell/Garneau/Panther) I'm sure it will be tough to justify coming back...but you are just as likely to get an over-zealous official at ANY OTHER race, as you are to have one at Mt. Pleasant again next year. My point was that its hard enough to put on races, get sponsors, organize volunteers and I think that when people are overly vocal about it, it puts a bad taste in those peoples' mouths...whoever's fault it was.
....just sayin'..
I was DQ'd in the group of 18. I never crossed the line all day except taking corners. I agree that there were plenty of people over the line in crosswinds, but the official overreacted by disqualifying everybody. He even disqualified my teammates that were dropped off the back. How random is that? He had no idea who was part of it. We pay lots of money to race. We had the right to protest bad officiating.
i understand that in 2013 all Michigan road races will be complete enclosures on the race course, which will eliminate the center-line infractions altogether.
continuation of post 7:01 PM - they'll be held in locations with exotic names, like "Sadlerville Business and Technology Park"
Circuit racing will replace road racing.
The email I received back from Shawn Farrell today...Hi Ellie, Thank you for the note. The centerline rule is generally a lose/lose scenario for everyone as it is nearly impossible to both conduct a competitive event and also have an artificial line that is easy to cross and then have a human being decide where to draw the line. I have, of course, heard from lots of you about this incident and am sorry that you all had a frustrating day. I also must weigh into account, however, several factors, including the following: 1) In my 33 years of officiating, I have never heard a rider, until now, actually admit that he did deserve to be DQ'd for crossing the centerline, so to some extent, if 18 riders in a field get DQ'd, it does not surprise me that they all are upset about it. 2) The behavior of the pack was apparently bad enough that the CR felt the need to stop the event at mile six to warn everyone. Therefore, that was the only warning anyone should have gotten. 3) There was a USAC staff member and his driver who confirmed that the incident did happen as described and that the pack was so far to the left side of the road that the officials had to come up the right side to get the numbers of the offending riders. 4) There were two riders from the group of DQ'd riders who contacted us individually saying that the incident did happen as described and that they were embarrassed for cat 1-2 riders everywhere for the behavior of the group that then tried to claim they were unjustly penalized. 5) There was a member of the group disqualified who is actually in the Local Association and who assigns officials in a neighboring state who also said that the call was just, even though he, himself, was disqualified. Adding those facts into the collective angst of those of you who were DQ'd makes it difficult to decide, sitting here in the ivory tower in Colorado Springs, exactly what happened. I will continue to collect opinions from those who were there and I will be speaking with the officials present to debrief on the situation and discuss what alternatives were available and if now, with hindsight, we think the best decision was made. Common sense says, 'Not a chance.' I have been an official for a long time, and plenty of times the entire pack was over the centerline for long periods of time. Any strong left to right crosswind will do that to a pack, so it is easy to believe. The fact that he stopped the race at the 6 mile point to issue a warning indicates to me that there was a behavioral issue going on, and stopping them to give the warning is the approved method of handling that situation. However, you only get one such warning. I have had to do that exact thing multiple times in my officiating career. I have to admit I hate the centerline rule. It really does mess up a good bike race, but we can’t get courses if we don’t use it because counties will not give us closed roads and we can’t afford the police to run true rolling enclosures.
Well, when Andys agrees with the call, what would he say???
There was a member of the group disqualified who is actually in the Local Association and who assigns officials in a neighboring state who also said that the call was just, even though he, himself, was disqualified.
someone tell me what USAC does for the avg rider. not the upcoming junior national champ, aspiring pro.etc
but the AVG JOE.
Insurance
Very similar reasons why the mmba needed imba.
I think I hear a lynch mob a-comin'....tosun Tosun Tosun ToSUN ToSUN TOSUN TOSUN!
Want to avoid dealing with Ugur in the future? Search for him on this page and you can see where he is officiating the rest of the season:
http://www.usacycling.org/forms/officials/2012-National-Level-Race-Assignments-Road.pdf
Insurance?
thats funny
USAC didn't run and pay my bills after i jacked myself up at USAC race last year.
Screw the yellow line infractions,
the big teams get feeds outside of the feed zones, then attack before them and through them.
Everyone talks like this is the first time the results of a sporting event has been changed by officiating. It happens in amature & professonal sports every day. Wonder if there will be 90+ comments of praise and words of thanks to promotors and officials that do it right at 99.9% of all events? Hater hater
GAWD SAVE US T!
those 99.9% events that do go right?
Well the payouts SUCK and the entry fees are too high at those events.
the results didn't change. Jake still rode everyone but Derek off his wheel.
ok
"Payouts suck" - cycling needs to do something about this sense of entitlement. Either get rid of the money, or peg the prize list to a percentage of the entry fees to a percentage of the field. I bet 95% of us would still race if there were no payouts at all.
.. and the entry fees are too high at those events.
Then go promote a few races yourself then instead of complaining about it. Then tell us what you think.
Seriously?
It's not that hard to put on a race.
The promoters are in it just to make quick cash. Most of the time they're screwing the racers by changing the payouts. That happened at Birmingham where the promoter played bait and switch and it took months to get the prizes
No yellow line rule in MTB racing, just sayin'...
B-HAm is a good but EXTREME example.
Be haters of what is evil; keep your minds fixed on what is good. Hater hater
Funny how once the letter from the official came out with all the evidence against the group, those who were DQ'd disappeared.
MTB + Miscne = dead
Too many age classes in MTB. They get something like 6 people per age/class. It's the 'everybody's a winner' attitude (kind of like women's road racing is in Michigan). Outside of Iceman, pretty much everybody finishes top 10, and half the field gets a 'prize'. MTB racing is a joke.
FUCK
aint that the truth.
not mention same its the shit year after year.
I have been racing for 20 years, have been an official for 8 years, and also help put on a few races over the last couple of years, and I am currently the one who assigns officials for most of Michigan races, so I have seen racing from every side now. Like Shawn Farrell stated, it is very difficult to take sides on this issue unless you were there to actually see what happen for yourself, and not many riders will admit to being wrong when accused of crossing the yellow line and being DQ’d for it.
Do I find it hard to believe that all 20 riders would cross the center line at the same time? yes. Do I find it imposible? No! Just ask any rider that was in the pack at this year’s Pro 1-2 field at Frankenmuth, at one point there was not one rider from the main field that was on the right side of the center line, and it was nowhere near a turn, it was all rider seeking shelter from the wind. Anyone that was there want to dispute that one? Did anyone say anything to the official who was following us?
For those who are hating on the MBRA, I will remind you that all of those positions are held by non-paid volunteers that give of their time to do their best to make racing in Michigan better. When positions were open to be part of the MBRA board, I didn’t see too many hands in the air.
For those who ask why we have USAC, they give the racers a fair and equal playing field, they make and enforce rules for a reason, not just to be the bad guy. If you don’t think they work, just ask Rudy or Zoe who were both denied entry into one Wednesday night race that is not sanctioned because they don’t have to follow the rules of USAC. Or you could ask any one of the Pro 1-2 field at Birmingham last year who did not get the correct pay out because a new promoter did not understand the rules. Yes, it may have taken a while for everyone to get their money, but they got it, and that was because USAC stepped in and made it right. Without them, the promoter could have said “sorry, my race, my rules”. You may not like them all of the time, but it’s better to have them around than not.
JS
You may not like them all of the time, but it’s better to have them around than not.
i can agree on most of that JS. but for newbies to come into the sport, and have to cough up the costly membership for a license, or the guys who earned here way to the 1/2 filed and only to witness some lunkheads who got upgrades just because the wiggled there way up because some regional or who ever official granted them there "pro1/2 card is kinda disheartening not to mention waters down the validity of the field. I aint naming names but there are a pile of guys that didn't probably even come close to getting enough points for the move up.
I know its off the subject but USAC needs some serious help and i aint the gu that wants to do it, im just saying and bitching.
pile on me as you see fit HATERS
Actually I never got the other half of my check at B-Ham. Even sent a couple emails.
@7:28pm - you're an idiot
7:46 PM
one of the guys that got homie 1/2 hook up?
just sayin....
http://mbra.org/indexx.php?module=news_story.inc.php&idd=626&src=palman_mbra
Lisa Haddens response (race promotor)
@7:28pm - you're an idiot
7:46 PM
why is this guy/gal an idiot?
My Turn: A Promoter's Perspective
By Lisa Hadden (Link Below)
http://www.mbra.org/indexx.php?module=news_story.inc.php&idd=626&src=palman_mbra
so those 19 will go down in MISCENE as the "Jackass 19"?
http://www.mbra.org/indexx.php?module=news_story.inc.php&idd=626&src=palman_mbra
tl;dr
just read that - Jackass 19 indeed
So who were the jackass19 - did they get their licenses taken?
DOPAGE
What they aren't seeing is how much damage has been done to the race. Since the start the promoter has fought against a vocal minority up here in MP to fund this race.
These detractors don't see how the race has inspired so many kids in the city to be more active (did you see how many kids were in those kids races?). Or that the local shop now has 3+ weekly rides lead by local residents. What made the paper was the protest and how bad it reflected on the city. Right now that's all the talk, how the racers on Sunday trashed the city. I don't think the race will be back next year.
Statement from a dumb ass...
"Funny how once the letter from the official came out with all the evidence against the group, those who were DQ'd disappeared".
So a letter makes it true? Shit I should have just typed that we were on the right side of the road.
This is definitely one of those Scene strings where the people that don't know never will, but will keep typing and the people that know have already moved on.
"so those 19 will go down in MISCENE as the "Jackass 19"?"
What a dumb_ss comment. Read the results on USA cycling. Looks like it is closer to 35 or more DQ'd. Including a former National champion, Ex-Pro's and collegiate racers. If your going to open your mouth have at least have something meaningful come out then a crap statement like that.
cant we all just get along?
RK
REad it here from Lisa Hadden, good stuff
I would like to personally thank all of the racers that made the hike to Mt. Pleasant to participate in our annual race. You came from all over Michigan and the Midwest and I know this was at a cost to your individual and team bank accounts and your time. I truly appreciate all of the comments after the race from riders also telling me what a great race this is, how much you enjoyed it and how well run and efficient it was and most importantly how safe it was. I also appreciate all of your suggestions and recommendations for course and operational improvements. Your comments allow us to improve each year so the race can grow and we can meet the growing demands of racing opportunities for the cycling community.
I also fully understand the extreme frustration and anger of riders that were disqualified at the end of the race after a grueling 120 miles of sheer baking in the sun, being dehydrated, exhausted and then so disappointed. Years of training, going without so you can invest in equipment, hard work and skill building takes its toll on family time, job responsibilities and other pursuits. I want to state that I fully support your right to protest what you considered an inappropriate call by a Chief Ref. I also urge you to follow USA Cycling grievance procedures if you want to continue the protest as is your right. As stated before, sporting events always come with strong emotional disagreements with refs and this is nothing new to cycling as well.
I do however consider the racers and a community in a partnership to grow the sport of cycling. One cannot be accomplished without the other. Promoters cannot hold an event without the racers attending. Racers cannot race without a venue to support their talents. It should be a win-win situation. At Le Tour de Mont Pleasant racers staged a protest at the end of the race and for that I have no quarrel. I do however take exception to the racers afterward that vowed to never come back to Mt. Pleasant and stated this loudly to anyone who would listen after the race. Any promoter or racer worth their salt should know that once the race starts, it is in the hands of USA Cycling as they are on site to manage the race. The community is there to provide a challenging and attractive infrastructure for the racers, and offer an opportunity for racers to showcase their skills. Neither the community nor the promoter has the final say as to the roster of officials. To blame a community for a ref’s call seems like killing the messenger who brought you a message.
continued again..
The extreme obstacles, barriers, and challenges we overcome to host an event each year is beyond measurement because we love this event and we love our racers that come to town, we want to share your joy in cycling and take a long held European tradition and bring it not only to our country and our states but to our small towns as well. Over the last four years our volunteers have formed a tight e ‘sprit de corps while they gain expertise in race organizing. It gives them a sense of pride and belonging to be able to contribute to such a great event and to earn the respect of other community members. The Le Tour has engendered a race organizing subculture in our community that is growing as more and more people are bicycling everywhere also. In essence, Le Tour de Mont Pleasant is a place where people can become great!
In summary, I would like to say that I bear no personal grudge against any protesting rider and that I bear no ill will to any of our riders. I just believe the perspective of the community hosting a race should be taken into consideration when these things happen. The partnership between racers and their host communities needs to remain strong so that all can succeed whether it is holding a road marshal flag or training to be bumped up to CAT 1. I wish all racers another excellent racing season, and I look forward to seeing many of you at races throughout the summer.
Thank you,
Lisa Hadden
Promoter/Organizer
Le Tour de Mont Pleasant
USA Cycling Official
Copyright © 2004-2011 J.F. Laidlaw | All Rights Reserved
This website and all materials and content has not been reviewed, approved or endorsed by USA Cycling, Inc.
Hey, I would say she knows what she is talking about.
Lets consider the facts. This has been a great event for what 4 years? They run it like a pro race, or as best they can. The payouts are good, courses good. They listen to suggestions from the racers and are very accomodating. They have funding and passion to keep this going.
If there is a race that could go big time, and that we want to support, in MI, this is one of the top contenders.
Please dont' trash it because some judge may have made some bad calls (and in talking with people today those calls may have been valid).
Lisa Hadden, whom I've never met, and the whole MP crew deserve props, not BS. They are the people that keep your scene alive.
As somebody that was actually in the chase group that was disqualified, I feel obligated to share what I saw. So many people here are making things up and being overly dramatic.
Near the start of the race we were all stopped and given a warning about the center line. That was the only warning I remember. The race resumed. The entire race I never once went over the line other than taking right corners, even when in crosswinds. I never go over the line unless pushed over and I have never received a simple warning. Not even in races with the crazy officials on motorcycles riding alongside the peloton. I am not saying that nobody went over the line. I saw the occasional guy ride over it or hang out in the other lane a few seconds before getting back in. As you can imagine, that can happen a lot over 100+ miles.
The race got faster with about 30mi to go and the field split up. There was a crosswind and people were riding the yellow line. Nothing crazy. I was still on the inside of the line. Coming up to a right-hand corner which took us South (and appears to be at mile 101 where we were told everybody went over the line), everybody moved into the left lane to take the corner. After the corner, everybody was back into the correct lane and still riding along the line because of the crosswind.
About ten miles later the official pulled in front of us and stopped us completely to tell us we were all disqualified because we all went over the line at mile 101. As you can imagine we were all upset, but there was nothing we could do. The race was over, and we could only ride back and try to protest. It had nothing to do with the promoter. The official made a bad/unfair call. Yeah, a lot of guys went over the line in the race, but not everybody did, unless he counted that corner.
I will be back at the race next year unless my team has me racing somewhere else. If all DQ'd riders decided not to show up next year, it would not hurt the race. We were only a small fraction of the 900 racers that weekend. I know people will be back. It is unlikely that scenario will happen again. A few people may have overreacted, but please don't say that we all ruined the event. Thanks.
nice comment Alex.
I think that everyone that thinks that they know what happened should actually read, very slowly, what Alex just stated. Most likely the most accurate and factual statement that has been posted since Sunday.
"no one went over the line"
"Yeah a lot of guys went over the line"
Waaaaa.....?????
19 jackasses
Sounds like it was the right call, just that it was poorly implemented
12:13 is a jackass for quoting incorrectly
amen
http://www.themorningsun.com/article/20120611/ENTERTAINMENT01/120619946/no-formal-protests-in-le-tour-disqualifications
19 whiners
“They were unhappy, but there was no official protest filed,” said Larry Martin, Midwest regional coordinator for USA Cycling. “A lot of tweeting, a lot of blogs, but no papers.”
The riders were disqualified for repeatedly crossing the center line of the road during the 120-mile men’s pro category 1 and 2 road race, which is run on public roads around Isabella County.
DOPAGE
so no formal protest other than a lot of bad mouthing from the 19, who made the rest of the 881 racers, who loved the races, look like shit-bags.
these guys took advantage of the media attention covering their race and turned it into a farce, then badmouthed the race, the city the promoter
wow
i really wish some of these guys would take up a new sport - cycling does not need their egos, negativity and me-first attitudes
good riddence jackass 19
Sincerely, Sport Class mtn biker/Cat 5 sometimes roady
If everyone who complained was as level headed as Alex there'd be a lot less drama.
Thank you for representing MI cylists well, Alex.
gotta admit the ego's and attitudes are incredible in and around our scene. its sad because when it all comes down to it. nearly everyone who shows up are amateur weekend warriors.
fuckin pathetic
lookit these guys wanted to make the promoter pay and wanted to humilitate the promter, thats what they set out to do with their whiny protest and then badmouthing and trashing the city and thats what they did. Alex should have rolled to the line and then turned around to change and confront the official with his protest or he should have filed a formal protest
i think we should call these guys out for whining and bitching and who were the guys trashing the city. Its a small city, anything they say about the event is getting around like wildfire.
Morons!
dude. these guys are fuckin ROCK STARS.
in there own mind.
Just so you know, I was only saying what I saw. Most of us that were DQ'd did not say a word or complain at all. Before you tough guys hiding behind your anonymous names start pointing fingers, you should know that just a few guys were making a scene. I just watched along with most others.
3-4 guys may have made the event look bad, but the rest of you are making the sport look bad.
If you want to continue the discussion, come say hi to me next time you see me. Otherwise, if you have nothing productive to say, don't say anything. I am done now. Time to ride my bike. Have a nice day.
4:01. Okay… I’ll take your bait. Are you ready to stop being a coward and throwing your hate around? You simply got it all wrong and we need to have a conversation. I would ask that you email me directly at alan(dot)zoltowski@gmail(dot)com and then I'll give you my phone number so we can have that conversation, that is, if you are done lurking around this board and showing no class like you’re claiming others have failed to show at LTDMP. I was one of the 19… I actually was “there” and I rode “the race” and I made the split. I’m also a MBRA board member and personal friend of Lisa Hadden. I actually spoke to her yesterday for 30 minutes. She seems to be handling things much better than you.
I’m 47, married, have three kids… lived in Mt. Pleasant for 6 years. Met my wife there… earned two degrees there… love Mt. Pleasant, the race and I try to conduct myself in a way that reflects positively on myself, my team and sponsors. I see no need to recap what happened on Sunday because Chris Uberti’s blog and Alex Vanias’ descriptions of what occurred during the race are spot on.
I rode out of my mind on Sunday and found myself alongside the strongest contingent of riders I’ve seen in years at a local race. Rock stars… super egos? Nope. Just like you and me… regular guys who race their bikes on the weekends… some in the 20’s with a girlfriend cheering them on… others in their 40’s with their wife and kids trying to find shade waiting for their dad to come back to town.
Who are you? If you want to spew hate; fine, but do so after we talk. I’m ready and waiting for your email… and I’ll keep your identity in confidence, you have my word. Hell, create a phony email address and give me a false name if that works for you.
Sincerely,
Alan Zoltowski
"you should know that just a few guys were making a scene. I just watched along with most others."
cameras were rolling sponsors were watching
thats it, why didnt people say sooner "relax and lets take this inside"
Helo all,
I have been reading the information, thoughts and passions regarding this race since I was one of the beneficiaries of the DQ's. My average personal hell ride to get my body to the finish line just to tell myself I didn't quit turned into an 8th place finish. A common theme among all the writings is rules, respect and right. At last nights team skill ride I talked about these points with beginner to experienced riders. Stories about me being DQ'ed at the nationals for something I didn't know I did, and being DQ'd from races for pressing the gray area of the rules. With over 2000 races under my belt I have seen it all. I will continue to take what I have learned from this weekend, lessons I would not have been taught if the race didn't play out the way it did, as training tools to help our racer grow in their knowledge of rules, respect and right.
Keep riding the good ride!
Rayster
Thanks Rayster, Alan, Alex, anon etc.. for shedding light, hate, opinions, facts, lies and crap about what unfolded on the roads around Mt pleasant. I think we can all agree or maybe not that it will be learning experience for everyone connected to it. We hope in the future good can come from this.
We know this blog is often a dumping ground for whatever, but from everyone here
thank you for taking the time to show support for your "scene"
lets close it down here.
Peace
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